It is currently Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:51 am




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
MICRO MAX! 
Author Message

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:21 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Costa Mesa, Ca
Post 
Went and put my helmet on before I typed this one.

This is just my opinion and I know not everyone will agree, but I think all this focus on Mini-Max and Micro-Max for last years Kid Karters is not in the best interest of the Kids.

LAKC has one of the best Cadet programs in the Region and why we are not taking advantage of that is curious to me.

Yea, I understand that you just push a button and go, but thats not what this is all about. We want to teach our Kids to be better drivers. No offense to the Kid Karters but the Cadets is a whole new program.

Driving lines, corner entry, corner exit, drafting, pushing, being pushed, patience, looking three cars ahead, starts, distance judgement, closure rate, strategy, close quarters racing (I mean a car ahead - behind - and one on each side - all within inches - don't check up early or ???? ). All this in a 70+ mph car with a newly graduated Kid Karter - just does not seem to be a good combo to me - but thats me.

Don't get me wrong - I am a proponent of practicing, but practicing vs. Racing is a completely different ballgame

If the intent is just to go as fast as we can and not focus on driving skill then bring the Rotax to practice. I believe that there is much more opportunity for the young Kids to enhance their driving and competition skills in the Junior 1 and HPV 1 classes. All these classes are for 8 to 12 year olds and a few 13 year old. The older faster kids want to stay out front with the leader and have a different approach to slower / lap cars than you experienced in Kid Karts. The Kid Karters need to become familiar with this and adapt before they jump from one of the slowest classes to one of the fastest. :shock:

Cost: I'm not sure of the retail for a Micro or Mini Max, but I know you can pick-up a complete Comer or HPV Package for a couple grand. By entering you Kid in the Jr1 or HPV1 classes they will be surrounded by some of the best in the region and a whole slew of Newbies - the moving chicanes. :wink: We use to be one of those.

These classes always have good turnouts and you Kids will have the opportunity to practice and enhance their skills before moving up to the faster classes.

And lastly, in your first year of Cadets - its not the engine. We don't need to spend thousands on multipule engines, just find a decent one and run it. There is much to be learned in the Cadets that the Kids were never exposed to in the Kid Kart class. I don't mean to be critical about the ambition that all us parents have for our children - I just want us all to put safety, fun, and development first.

Jeff Axton


Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:35 am
Profile

Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:14 am
Posts: 125
Location: Fullerton, CA.
Post 
JJAxton wrote:
Went and put my helmet on before I typed this one.


You have a helmet, Jeff?

JJAxton wrote:
Driving lines, corner entry, corner exit, drafting, pushing, being pushed, patience, looking three cars ahead, starts, distance judgement, closure rate, strategy, close quarters racing (I mean a car ahead - behind - and one on each side - all within inches - don't check up early or ???? ). All this in a 70+ mph car with a newly graduated Kid Karter - just does not seem to be a good combo to me - but thats me.


All things that need to be learned in whichever package they race.

Also, lets not scare everyone with that 70mph figure. The facts prove otherwise. Terminal velocity can be calculated pretty closely using RPMS, Gear Ratio and tire circumference.

Take your max RPM and multiply it by your front driver. Then divide this by the number of teeth on the rear gear. Finally, multiply this number by .03 (this is the conversion of all of the units, tire circ. in inches, to miles, revs per minute to hours, etc.)

So, MicroMaxes turn 9000 rpm and run a spec ratio of 14/73.

Do the calculation and you see that the top speed is......


52mph.

Now, take the Mini, which turns about 12,500 max and runs a nationally spec'ed ratio of 13/82 (although I don't think that LAKC uses this rule for whatever reason). Do the calculation and you will find the number to be.....

60mph.

Please indulge me by doing the same thing with an HPV and a Comer.

What max revs do you get with each of those motors and what gear ratios do you run?


JJAxton wrote:
If the intent is just to go as fast as we can and not focus on driving skill then bring the Rotax to practice. I believe that there is much more opportunity for the young Kids to enhance their driving and competition skills in the Junior 1 and HPV 1 classes. All these classes are for 8 to 12 year olds and a few 13 year old. The older faster kids want to stay out front with the leader and have a different approach to slower / lap cars than you experienced in Kid Karts. The Kid Karters need to become familiar with this and adapt before they jump from one of the slowest classes to one of the fastest. :shock: .


Why wouldn't someone driving a Rotax have to possess any driving skills? Good job insulting every Rotax racer out there.

JJAxton wrote:
Cost: I'm not sure of the retail for a Micro or Mini Max, but I know you can pick-up a complete Comer or HPV Package for a couple grand. By entering you Kid in the Jr1 or HPV1 classes they will be surrounded by some of the best in the region and a whole slew of Newbies - the moving chicanes. :wink: We use to be one of those.


The up front cost of the Micro and Mini is more than than a Comer or HPV. This is true. Both of those motors cost about $2000, whereas a Rotax costs about $3000.

HOWEVER,

You can run the Rotax for more than 50 hours without having to rebuild it. We don't have much data on the Micro yet, but I think that you can run the Micro for close to 75-80 hours before doing a bottom end rebuild.

Compare this to the rebuild frequencies of the other 2 motors and you can see that the Rotax becomes cheaper by the 6th month of operation.

JJAxton wrote:
And lastly, in your first year of Cadets - its not the engine. We don't need to spend thousands on multipule engines, just find a decent one and run it. Jeff Axton


This is absolutely true for the first year.

After that, you need 3? 4? 5?



A


Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:49 am
Profile
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 4:08 pm
Posts: 751
Location: newhall, CA
Post 
I say buy 10 comers and I will give you a deal at $1800.00 each and they will all be fast. while your at it 8 HPV's and 2 Rotax's.That will make my year end in a high note.


Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:41 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:21 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Costa Mesa, Ca
Post 
Told ya I was going to need the Helmet.

Andy, for starters let me be clear - it was never my intention to insult anyone. I respect all my fellow competitors and if I did insult anyone who read my post I apologize. I was speaking about Kid Karters moving up – I do not lump all Rotax Racers into that category. Perhaps others do, I do not.

Regarding the speed - I was referring to the Mini-Max - so OK we'll call it 60. Although Willy's Mychron 4 has recorded speeds in excess of that at Perris, Grange, and Cal Speed. And I am confident in saying that our Mini-Max is significantly faster than our HPV 1 and smokes the Comer. I will also note that the AVERAGE SPEED, not the TOP SPEED, of the Mini-Max pole sitter at the Gatorz event at Infineon this year was 63.289. Apparently the math is more difficult than we thought.

Your right - things need to be learned in whatever package you are running. But the key word here is "learned". The Kid Karters do not poses this knowledge; it needs to be "learned".

Please note that I am speaking in general terms - some of the move up Kid Karters could run with the Mini-Max/Junior-Max Kids with no problem. I just don't think this is a criteria that can be applied to all.

The HPV and Comer classes had an Average of 15 - 20 cars in each class for the entire year. Mini-Max 2. In my opinion, not everyone’s, the new Kids will benefit more by racing with a group of 15-20 Kids, all in the same cars and with the same engines. To run a class that has one other entrant, and run in a mixed class with 8 - 10 Junior-Max's that would have an age range from 8 to 16 would be less constructive.

How fast is the Junior-Max, please help us with that Math.

I'm not trying to scare anyone Andy - I just don't think it is a good combo to mix newly graduated Kid Karters with teenagers who have been driving these cars for a couple of years. You are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree.

When you say I insulted "Every Rotax driver out there", I wasn't talking about every Rotax Driver out there, I was talking about the Kid Karters moving up, and once again, I apologize to those who I offended.

Regarding the Cost: I was referring to a "Complete Package", Car, Engine, Stand, and Starter; of course, this is used not new. And I'm sure you could find a used Rotax for $3,000, but that wasn't my point. And I agree there are advantages to the Rotax.

My overall point in my previous post that if you are a Kid Karter moving up and want to run with LAKC I believe that the Junior 1 and HPV 1 classes will be more advantageous to you child’s development than the Mini-Max/Junior-Max Class.

For those Kid Karters who posses the talent to run with the Mini-Max/Junior-Max class I would concede to Andy's philosophy. However, I believe these Kids are the exception, not the norm.

I said it earlier and I will say it again, LAKC provides one of the best Cadet programs in the Region and I think we should take advantage of that.

Again, my intent here was not to insult anyone or slam all Rotax drivers. I just want us all to focus on the safety and development of our children’s racing careers and place them in the appropriate classes where they can learn and develop the most.

Jeff Axton


Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:54 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:14 am
Posts: 125
Location: Fullerton, CA.
Post 
JJAxton wrote:
Told ya I was going to need the Helmet.


I still don't know why. Are my words and logic that tough? I am simply offering some facts, I'm not throwing anything at you.

JJAxton wrote:
Regarding the speed - I was referring to the Mini-Max - so OK we'll call it 60. Although Willy's Mychron 4 has recorded speeds in excess of that at Perris, Grange, and Cal Speed. And I am confident in saying that our Mini-Max is significantly faster than our HPV 1 and smokes the Comer. I will also note that the AVERAGE SPEED, not the TOP SPEED, of the Mini-Max pole sitter at the Gatorz event at Infineon this year was 63.289. Apparently the math is more difficult than we thought.



Were you running the spec gear, or did you put a Bonneville Land Speed Record setup on it? The spec gear drops the top speed considerably. Running the spec gear at CalSpeed, instead of an open gear like LAKC runs, slows lap times by more than a second. This would put the MiniMax and HPV-1 laptimes within a second of another. Just about the same difference there is between Comer and HPV-1.

I like that you did some research, it shows that you care. Unfortunately, that statistic is wrong. When the dummy that sets up the track data in the scoring computer (me) leaves the track length at a 1 mile default, and not the true length of .75 miles, the numbers get skewed. The average speed is simply the track length divided by the lap time. Punching in the correct numbers, the MiniMax AVERAGE SPEED drops to 47.467mph. Oddly enough, the off pole kid in HPV-1 at last month's LAKC race had an average speed of 47.814mph in qualifying. What was that kid's name?

Oh yeah, Willy Axton.

JJAxton wrote:
The HPV and Comer classes had an Average of 15 - 20 cars in each class for the entire year. Mini-Max 2. In my opinion, not everyone’s, the new Kids will benefit more by racing with a group of 15-20 Kids, all in the same cars and with the same engines. To run a class that has one other entrant, and run in a mixed class with 8 - 10 Junior-Max's that would have an age range from 8 to 16 would be less constructive.


Unfortunately it will always be this way as long as club officials keep trying to talk parents out of racing Jr. Rotax classes.

These are the statistics from 2008. What if 14 dads get together and buy MiniMaxes? Would it still be a bad idea then? What if your post just convinced 13 Dads to shelve their plans? Is that better?


JJAxton wrote:
How fast is the Junior-Max, please help us with that Math.


Sarcasm noted, but not until you give me the numbers for Comer 80 and HPV-1 first like I asked.

JJAxton wrote:
I'm not trying to scare anyone Andy - I just don't think it is a good combo to mix newly graduated Kid Karters with teenagers who have been driving these cars for a couple of years. You are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree.


And that is what MicroMax is for. As for the teenagers issue, that is LAKC's choice, not mine. I don't mix them in my races.

JJAxton wrote:

My overall point in my previous post that if you are a Kid Karter moving up and want to run with LAKC I believe that the Junior 1 and HPV 1 classes will be more advantageous to you child’s development than the Mini-Max/Junior-Max Class.

I said it earlier and I will say it again, LAKC provides one of the best Cadet programs in the Region and I think we should take advantage of that.

Again, my intent here was not to insult anyone or slam all Rotax drivers. I just want us all to focus on the safety and development of our children’s racing careers and place them in the appropriate classes where they can learn and develop the most.

Jeff Axton


Child's development? Racing careers?

Good Lord man, where does fun fit in?


You are right, at this moment in time, there are more HPV/Comer racers than MiniMaxes at LAKC.

What if it were entirely the opposite in 2 years? What if there were 20 Minis and only 2 Comers? Would your opinion be the same?

I doubt that would be the case, there are too many people with a vested interest in keeping those fragile motors in circulation. The only people that want a class where you only need one motor and can run that motor all year without a rebuild are the customers, and me. But we will never know as long as you try to talk people out of racing the class.

A


Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:20 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:21 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Costa Mesa, Ca
Post 
OK Andy I'm completely off base and your "logic" is perfect. You have rebutted everything I have mentioned in this thread with your "logic". Not really giving any constructive alternatives - just rebuttal.

So Andy, lets hear what you would reccomend to those move up Kid Kart Parents who intend to run LAKC with its 2009 class schedule, which is the same as the 2008 class schedule. And as you generate your response I would ask you to ask yourself what would be best for the KIDS.

Lets just keep it to the move up Kid Karters, 1st year Cadets, 7 and 8 year olds. Not 2nd, 3rd, or 4th years Cadets, not all Rotax Drivers - just the move up Kids.


Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:41 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:14 am
Posts: 125
Location: Fullerton, CA.
Post 
Jeff,

Please, don't take any of this personally. I can tell by the tone of your post that you are not happy with me. I am simply offering the other side of the coin.

When you put quotes around the word logic, you are implying that what I am saying isn't logical. In my mind it is perfectly logical. I never put any of your thoughts or arguments in quotes to undermine them. Please give me the same courtesy.

You ask me for a constructive alternative. I believe that is what Micro and Mini are: Constructive Alternatives. In my mind, it is your post that is the rebuttal, not mine.

You asked what is best for the kids, and you listed KIDS in bold. What is best for the kids is what makes them the happiest. Thats all. Nothing more, nothing less. Its the solution that keeps them racing and having fun as long as they want to. The prevailing statistic in karting is that most folks stay less than 2 years and then leave for various reasons. For many, the biggest reason is that they feel that they cannot compete on a even playing field for one reason or another. I think that the current system and same old motor choices foster this belief. I am simply standing up for a different alternative. We have to come up with something that keeps folks in karting. Its my belief that Rotax does that. What other package can you run from age 7 to age 16 with the same exact motor? Then at 16, you just change the cylinder and you can race from 16 until you are as old as 63 year old Keith Waters.

If you are implying with your emphasis on KIDS that my arguments are self serving in some way, then I am going to refute you again. LAKC declining to run Micro is great for me. I run GATORZ and I will offer a MicroMax class. If people want to race Micro, I have the only option.

But, that isn't good for the kids, or the parents.

The prevailing unspoken rule for all kart clubs is that "5 entries make a class". That is how it has always been. I would bet that if 5 MicroMaxes showed up on an LAKC raceday, there would be a class for them.

I'm sorry that I struck a nerve with you. You have to realize that you are an LAKC official now. When you write something, people listen. When you tell them that MicroMax is not a good option, that may turn them off. They may decide to leave karting because they cannot afford the Comer or HPV merry-go-round. To me, anything that keeps folks in our great sport is what is best for them.

I was simply trying to make that point.

A

P.S. Are you ignoring my gearing and max revs request?


Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:04 pm
Profile
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 4:08 pm
Posts: 751
Location: newhall, CA
Post 
FYI Mr. Jeff Axton is not a official of LAKC. He is a club member that volunteered to help the kid kart racers and parents that are new to the sport and need help.
All of the posts are the personal opinions of Jeff and do not have any impact on the decisions made by the B.O.D. We would love to allow every class a spot but just do not have enough time in the day.
We have chosen to leave Mico Max "a very new class" out of the schedule due to time constraints and the inability to conbined it with any other class.
I hope there is no misunderstanding that Jeff is entitled to his opinion but it is not the opinion for the Officials or THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS.

Chris LaTorre
LAKC President


Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:28 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:21 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Costa Mesa, Ca
Post 
Andy, thats all great and I have no ill feelings toward you in any way. I highlighted KIDS because I want to focus to stay on whats best for the Kids - not all Rotax Drivers. I put quotes around logic because that is the word you used - thats all. You seemed to quote me a lot in your rebuttals. Does that mean your upset with me?

I never said "... that MicroMax is not a good option, ..." I believe that both the Micro and Mini are Great classes. Willy loves his Mini-Max; I just didn't feel he was ready - just coming out of Kid Karts - to run with the Junior-Max's. LAKC doesn't offer Micro-Max. So we decided to run the Jr1 and HPV1 in 2008. We went from the worst in January to winning the Final race of the year in October. I beleieve that is because Willy had the opportunity to race with some of the best Kids in the Region and he was able to learn more from them than either you or I could teach him. We ran used Cars and the same used motors for the entire year - no rebuilds.

But Andy, you didn't answer the question. What would you reccommend to the move up Kid Kart Parents who want to run with LAKC in 2009 with the schedule that they are offering. You didn't like what I had to say so lets hear what you would suggest.


Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:03 am
Profile

Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:14 am
Posts: 125
Location: Fullerton, CA.
Post 
Sorry it took so long to respond, I was at CalSpeed today getting blown around.

I quote you because it keeps my thoughts straight. It is easier to address a comment that way.

I thought that I answered this, but I will do so again.

I offered this alternative on Nov 3rd on this thread:

Dom (and any other lurkers out there),

With enough interest, the GATORZ Karting Cup will offer a MicroMax class for 2009, not including the 2 driveaway Challenge of the Americas races, or the Streets of Willow.

This would be comprised of 6 races, 3 of which at CalSpeed.

Call FTK at 714-289-0432 for more details.

A


Then a couple of posts ago, I wrote this:

You asked what is best for the kids, and you listed KIDS in bold. What is best for the kids is what makes them the happiest. Thats all. Nothing more, nothing less. Its the solution that keeps them racing and having fun as long as they want to.

And this:

The prevailing unspoken rule for all kart clubs is that "5 entries make a class". That is how it has always been. I would bet that if 5 MicroMaxes showed up on an LAKC raceday, there would be a class for them.

So, it seems that I have offered a couple of good options.

If given the choice between leaving karting because you don't want to get involved with a certain class, or being one of few trendsetters in a new class, I would choose the second option if I enjoyed this sport.

Chris, I never stated that Jeff's opinions represented those of the Board of Directors. All I said was that he is now a Club Official. Here is the title on the announcement.

Its Offical - - The LAKC Kid Kart Advisor for the 2009 Season - Yikes!

He has the title and the T-shirt. Sounds official to me.

I think that Jeff will do a fine job, he is passionate about the sport and the club. All I am doing is offering an option that many have asked about.

Heck, there are 4 parents that have either purchased the product, or are very interested. Hays and Vitarella already have them. Mr. Sims dropped his Sr. Rotax off at the shop today to be converted. Mr. Jackson is apparently very interested in the program enough to look at used setup. That is 4 club members interested enough in the class to spend their hard earned dollars on the product. Based on the conversations that I have had with several Dads, there are many more interested as well.

However, when the appointed "Kid Kart Advisor" tells them this:

This is just my opinion and I know not everyone will agree, but I think all this focus on Mini-Max and Micro-Max for last years Kid Karters is not in the best interest of the Kids.

It causes those members who have already chosen the product, and those that are considering it, that you think their choice is wrong. You just told them that they screwed up by making a choice with the best intentions in mind.

Either way, hopefully I have made my point. I think that neither of us would like to continue to belabor it.

If someone chooses MicroMax or MiniMax, they won't be going 70mph, their "driving development" won't be hampered, their "driving career" won't be ruined and they will have a place to race. And after 6 months, they will actually have spent less.

A


Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:14 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:21 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Costa Mesa, Ca
Post 
So there you have it. Two different points of view, now you can decide what’s is the best way to approach the LAKC Program with your kids. I must say that if I had it to do over again I probably wouldn’t. The number of emails and phone calls has been impressive – some pro, some con, and a few hostile.

It was never my intention to insult anyone. It was never my intention to demean the Micro–Max or Mini-Max Programs. It was never my intention to frighten anyone. My only intention was to try to share the experiences that I have gone thru with Willy as we transition into the Cadets with LAKC and get the move-up parents to focus on what the club offers. I still believe that putting the move up Kid Karters in the combined Mini-Max / Junior-Max class is not a good idea; however, I realize now there are several who disagree – passionately.

I am not an LAKC Official, these post do not represent the Club, Club Officals, or anyone else. They only represent my own personal point of view. My sole intention was to get the Parents to think about what LAKC offers and decide what would be best for their children, nothing more. Perhaps I could have articulated it differently, but that’s water under the bridge now.

So, once again, I apologize to those who I have offended and in the future I will try to keep my opinion to myself.


Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:08 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:14 am
Posts: 125
Location: Fullerton, CA.
Post 
Spirited debate is good. If the opportunity arises, please do it again. Different opinions are what makes this country tick. Don't ever apologize for that. I never do.

At least there are a couple of viewpoints out there that have been passionately argued.

There is no reason for anyone to be hostile. If you were hostile to Jeff, you should be ashamed of yourself.

A

P.S. Jeff, if you like adult beverages, please come to the FTK trailer next time you see us at the end of the day. Its always stocked well. You may have to bring your own mixers, though.


Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:13 pm
Profile
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 4:08 pm
Posts: 751
Location: newhall, CA
Post 
NO DRINKING AT THE TRACK. Thats the rules. :P :P :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:


Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:16 am
Profile WWW

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:01 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Rialto
Post movin' on up...
Thanks Jeff and Andy for the passion. Both of your opinions were very helpful and valued. However we've chosen to BMX race in 09'. :wink:


Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:50 am
Profile WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore.